tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1942282976301022996.post1368483444872529174..comments2022-02-21T19:50:16.768-07:00Comments on Lady Wisdom's Favorite: In Defense of Rockets and QuestsSophia's Favoritehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02871625814389904112noreply@blogger.comBlogger5125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1942282976301022996.post-38319329067832721512012-01-23T09:52:22.915-07:002012-01-23T09:52:22.915-07:00I'll have to look into C.J. Cheryh -- but I mu...I'll have to look into C.J. Cheryh -- but I must admit I was hoping for a more ringing endorsement of something than "okay". But I take it you and I are in similar boats: love sci fi, just don't love most of what's on offer in the genre.<br /><br />I've read most of the Conan stuff. May try the Mouser stuff, but I've read mixed-reviews. Seems there just isn't a lot out there, which means the likes of us need to get writing!<br /><br />Back to Martin -- the wedding scene you mention was the one that nearly caused me to throw my iPad across the room.Nicholas D.C. Wansbutterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07106918738071257396noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1942282976301022996.post-22464756791203336092012-01-18T02:51:10.670-07:002012-01-18T02:51:10.670-07:00Hehe, I didn't mention steampunk, because I th...Hehe, I didn't mention steampunk, because I thought it would be rather obvious coming from me. <br /><br />I consider it to be something akin to space opera (I like that you called it airship opera/steampulp), since it is all about a sense of wonder and cool people doing cool things, hopefully with a nod to science in there somewhere (I am a stickler for a bit of realism in steampunk, myself, but I also enjoy the fluffy magic-science stuff when the story is entertaining (Five Fists of Science)) That said, I don't particularly like my steampunk mixed with other subgenres - dystopias, alternate histories, and worst of all, environmentalist screeds, tend to mess it up. I'm not really a fan of post-apocalyptic steampunk either, Abney Park notwithstanding. I prefer shiny machines and a sense of "ooh, science!".<br /><br />I don't mind some alternate history in there, since it is a semi-historical setting, but I don't care for just swapping out winners and losers in wars and seeing what would have happened. I would consider an example of decent alternate history steampunk to be Westerfeld's Leviathan Trilogy. It's oddly historically accurate for a book about World War I, and it's full of giant machines, Tesla cannons, and flying bioengineered monsters. I have also read some good westerns and mysteries/buddy cop stories that were steampunk. It works well mixed with other big genres, I guess, as a way of flavoring the setting?penny farthinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08993329591603913672noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1942282976301022996.post-15757412138202725512012-01-15T13:06:23.308-07:002012-01-15T13:06:23.308-07:00@ Pennyfarthing: hear hear!
@ Nicholas: I agree, ...@ Pennyfarthing: hear hear!<br /><br />@ Nicholas: I agree, it is possible to do the subgenres well, and steampunk is as much a sense-of-wonder genre (at least done well) as space opera is. But the critically praised steampunk is usually bad alternate history (and trying to live up to the second part of its name, which is stupid), so it comes under the same opprobrium as that.<br /><br />I didn't like Canticle for Leibowitz; it's a decent post-apocalyptic story but I see no real value <i>in</i> post-apocalyptic stories. Aside from the rank indulgence in pessimism, they tend to misread their historical models (e.g., the Dark Ages—I've often thought of writing one where the US states are now called "regiments" and are ruled by people with the hereditary title of "colonel", but the people who write post-apocalyptic stories don't know that the auxiliary commanders took over the Roman provincial governments).<br /><br />Finally, as for works I'd recommend, for SF, Niven's Known Space stuff is okay (his take on sexuality's a lot less icky than later Heinlein's), especially the stuff set before Ringworld (other than The Patchwork Girl), as are most of Heinlein's juveniles and almost everything by C. J. Cherryh. The societies in those are sometimes dystopian, e.g. Niven's organ banks and population control, but the stories are still about people <i>doing</i> things. For fantasy, you can't go wrong with the classics, like Robert Howard's Conan and Kull stories and Fritz Leiber's Fafhrd and Grey Mouser. Those, too, are often cynical—Lankhmar is one hard-boiled quasi-Renaissance metropolis—but the heroes are still basically sane men who <i>do</i> things. Be warned, though, around about the fourth book Leiber started to get "old SF writer's disease", and included too many of his weird personal fetishes; I almost never touch the fifth through seventh Lankhmar books.<br /><br />PS. Speaking of Martin, how about those nobles who mock the one guy for letting his peasants into his castle? Uh, that's what castles are for, guys, you can't maintain a warrior aristocracy without a labor force. And if you assassinate people at a banquet <i>to celebrate their alliance-marriage with you</i>, nobody will ever ally with you again—that's as stupid as having a criminal character rob his own bank.Sophia's Favoritehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02871625814389904112noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1942282976301022996.post-18453214690260841762012-01-13T20:43:54.262-07:002012-01-13T20:43:54.262-07:00Good post. A lot of stuff I agree with here. I am ...Good post. A lot of stuff I agree with here. I am definitely fully in favour of your spirited defence of rockets and quests.<br /><br />That said, I think there can be good found (or written) in the subgenres. From a certain perspective, <i>A Canticle for Liebowitz</i> falls within the "dystopian" subgenre. It's definitely a very cruddy future (and probably realistic taking into consideration Man's fallen nature) yet still has a certain sense of wonder. <br /><br />As such, I'd argue that the subgenres aren't necessarily themselves to blame, but the authors who tend to write in those genres. Also, there are subgenres you didn't mention like steampunk which is frequently the very opposite of what you rightly decry. Or my personal favourite, Space Fantasy which is a collision of High Fantasy and Space Opera (or would you say that space fantasy is simply a type of Space Opera?).<br /><br />And just to deal with George R.R. Martin's stuff, you'll probably want to castrate me for giving his novels 3/5 stars when I reviewed them at Swords and Space. I thought there were certain things that were well done in the first novel and the tournament scenes and the Stark family at it's height threatened to give us the wonder and adventure you mention. Although I did throw my iPad across the room in disgust (well, not really) when he killed off most of them partway through "A Storm of Swords". Plus having a war that lasts uninterrupted for <b>years</b> in a mediæval setting is patently absurd (to put it mildly -- not to mention he never does explain how everyone doesn't starve during decades-long winters) ... okay, as I ramble more here I think you have me and I'll have to revisit my review. I think I let my enjoyment of "A Game of Thrones" overshadow how bad things got after that book.<br /><br />Which brings me to an important question: What works do you recommend (other than the obvious like L.O.T.R., the Roman and Greek classics, the mediæval <i>chansons de geste</i>)? The majority of stuff out there is just such trash, that may be why I gave Martin's work more credit than was due. <br /><br />And to start off on a tangent again, have you noticed that not just pessimism but gross perversion are praised? I made the mistake of giving "The Best of the Best Science Fiction Anthology" a try and it was one tale of sodomitic incest after another.Nicholas D.C. Wansbutterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07106918738071257396noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1942282976301022996.post-72806829580425959032012-01-13T14:10:19.478-07:002012-01-13T14:10:19.478-07:00It's because they think the purpose of art is ...It's because they think the purpose of art is to challenge. I used to think they had it wrong, but since my is still blown from watching the last three DVDs of Fullmetal Alchemist Brotherhood in one go, I'm actually ready to concede that point. But challenge what?<br /><br />Critics steeped in critical theory who (surprise surprise) find themselves and their lives lacking something, think art ought to raise its fist and scream a challenge to God for making things so crappy. Or they would, if they weren't also wussy. And Marxists. So instead they raise their middle fingers and sneer an insult at the past, or the public, or anything that someone else might earnestly enjoy, for being, well, better than them. They tell us that stories about pathetic people being pathetic are realistic, because it's all they know, and they've settled for it.<br /><br />But the purpose of art is to challenge. Us. To be heroic, not to give in when the odds are against us, to depend on our friends, to find and hold something or someone that makes us able to face down whatever life throws our way, to pick ourselves up when we fail. And not sneer at normal life and people, because that is what we are protecting, and what we will return to or start again when the story is over, until the next adventure.<br /><br />We should accept art's challenge, not use it as an excuse to settle, and eventually decay and collapse, because the challenge is too much.penny farthinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08993329591603913672noreply@blogger.com